SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Truly Expat Travel Podcast, where I chat with expats about their favorite holiday destinations. Let's be honest. Expats are some of the best travelers around, always planning the next adventure, exploring hidden gems, and finding the best spots wherever they go. So who better to ask for travel inspiration? Thank you, Deborah, for coming on today. Just I'm very excited. And I and that's because Deborah and I go way back. We have been friends. Can I say, I think it's 22 years.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

I think it's like 22 years. 28 this year?

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Yeah, 27. So our kids, so to put it into context, our babies went to school together who are now in their 20s. So we were friends. 22 years that'll be then. 23 years. So we've been friends for 23 years. We met in Australia, but I was lucky enough to have Deborah come out to Singapore. So she's now my friend in Singapore. So let's get started. Let's find out about you and your expat journey before we get into your destination. Where are you from? How long have you been here? You know, all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Okay. My husband and I moved to Singapore in 20, the end of 2018. Michael works for Citibank. And I met Michael in 1993. And from 1995, when we bought our four first apartment together, he spent all his time travelling to Singapore. So I spent a lot of time alone in the late 90s. So then he left Citibank and we moved to London for four years. Then we came back, he moved back into Citibank, and they kept trying to get him to move over to Singapore. And for me, I just moved back to Australia. Little kids that were going to start school. So I thought, no, no, I want the kids to go to school. I want them to have friends. I want them to just finish school together. So finally, Anjali literally was graduating in year 12, and Citibank said, Right, your job here's ended, your job's now in Singapore.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

So here we are. Awesome. And I'm very lucky to have you here with me. So let's get into your destination. Where have you chosen and why have you chosen it?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

It was it, I thought it would have been a hard question because I travel a lot and I love travel. My husband's European, so he he knows Europe quite well. But there's one destination that keeps springing to my mind, and it's Bruges in Belgium.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Okay. Been there? No, I haven't, but I'm really excited to go deep into why you've chosen it. But before we get there, what kind of traveler are you?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

I I thought long and hard about this question, and I think I don't, I'm not a great planner. I'm I'm a great planner in that ADHD, and I will write everything down and I will spend ages looking through maps, choosing all my places to visit, looking at my accommodation really carefully and choosing it because it's close to this and near that. But when it I love spontaneity when I travel. Okay. I will plan the hell out of getting there and what I'm gonna do while I'm there. But I will wake up every day. My thankfully, my husband's the same, and we'll go, what will we see today? Oh, I like that. I love traveling that way. So I don't have specific travel goals in mind usually. Sometimes it's a family event, sometimes it's you know, like we're going to Switzerland again for Christmas this year. Sometimes there's goals in mind because we ski and we love skiing in Switzerland. But I like to just travel for the sake of going somewhere pretty and then deciding what sort of travel I'll be on that trip. Oh, okay, that's a different way to go. Tomorrow we're f we're flying out to Malaysia. Ah, okay. To celebrate our wedding anniversary, and that's the relaxation one. That's where we go to this resort, it's all expenses paid, and you do nothing.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Just lie by the pool, read books and drink cocktails.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Is that this type of holiday? That's the one where the Malaysia. But what about the destination that we're talking about? But with Bruges, when I go to Europe, it's all about history and culture.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Okay. I love that part of Europe. So when I go to Europe, I'm an an an investigative traveller. I will look at the place and learn about the history. And did is it hard to get there? It's it's if you know Europe well enough, you know that the best way to get around Europe is by train. Okay. Is there a airport that you can fly into or is it fly in? Yes, Belgium has a quite a few airports. There's Antwerp, Brussels, and probably some smaller regional airports. You can certainly fly directly there, but not to Bruges. So you'd have to fly, I think Antwerp might be the closest, or Brussels. Fly into Brussels and then get the train to Bruges. Bruges is an old European city, so train trip is the best way. So you're flying to Europe or fly into Belgium, but to get into Bruges, you would have to either drive or go by train.

SPEAKER_03 4:47

And what does a two-day itinerary look like if I was to travel to Bruges?

SPEAKER_01 4:53

That's tricky because what I like to do in Bruges is just walk around and marvel. It's very much a it's a medieval feeling city. It's very dark red stone. Okay, okay. That that surprises me. Yeah, so you got all these brownstone cobble walkways and and bridges over rivers, and then you've got the beautiful town square with the other Georgian and pre-Georgian architecture. So for me, it's walking around. Walking around, going to if if you're there for a weekend, Sunday's usually market days in Europe.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Go to a market in a European square. Wow, you'll get to try all the local foods, drinks, and Christmas markets. Do they have Christmas markets in Peruche? Oh, they have the best Christmas markets. And they turn the main old square. I think it's called the Burger Platz. Burger means mere in Dutch. Okay. That probably means Merrill Square Square in Holland. And they turn that. There's a few other squares, and I'll get to that later, that have Christmas markets, but the main square is one big Christmas market. And by Christmas market, it's different in Europe, it's everything. They have an ice skating rink, loads of food stalls, as well as you know, you can purchase local items.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

How long would you stay at a Christmas market? Like to wander around and when I was there for Christmas, I was there for a week.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Bruges is a very small city.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

So a week is enough. There's and we stayed near another square that had also had a Christmas market setup, which is very dangerous because one of my favourite shoes is called Oli bowl. If any bowl is I have but explained, please dumpling. Yeah. Much softer and nicer. And it's a round ball, hence the word bowl. And they roll it in icy sugar. Oh, bags of usually five, I think. Five. And hot. And they're hot, and you gotta eat them straight away. Oh no. Right next to our accommodation in the marketplace. So that's dangerous. But you get glue wine everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Yes. Okay. Can you explain that? Because that's a big thing in the in the Christmas markets, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yes, yes. There's always a warm wine stall, glue wine, and it's just it it's cold. It's December, right? It's freezing cold. Yeah. Getting toward the midst of winter in Europe. So it's probably three degrees in the day, you know, and zero at night time. So it's a good way to stay warm. Good excuse.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

I did see someone have like you get a mug from each market, and you can use that mug. Is that right? Is that at work?

SPEAKER_01 7:24

I haven't seen the mug unless you be maybe in a beer stein. But the marketplaces I've got good wine from, it's usually just like a paper cup.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

And what other foods would you eat there in the Christmas markets?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Uh in the Christmas markets is all that sort of foods. It's the it's Europe. But there's they're they're not overweight a lot of Europeans because I think maybe the cold there's a lot of a lot of bright foods, but Belgium and Holland and all of those places that are on the sea have because seafood as well. Oh, okay. I didn't realise my favourite thing. But cookies. Bridge is famous for marzipen. Are they? Yes. Okay. You know what? Marzipan is a little sweet almond. People call marzipin what you put around, you know, royal icing on a cake.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Similar sort of thing, and they make it into little animals or trees or houses. Beautiful colours and figurines, so you'll have whole stalls full of marzipan.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

And of course there's Belgian waffles.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

Oh yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. And I guess they're like it's if it's winter, do you still have the Belgian waffles? Because they're hot, but you wouldn't put the ice cream on the top, would you?

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Yeah, but they're bigger on cream over there.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

Are they? Okay. Yeah. So that that would work then. That that makes sense. What other things that you would you do around if you're walking around, what else is there?

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Is there shops to or is there lots of the market squares is is where it's the old life of a town is the market square. So even if the markets are on, around that market square, you will find the most amazing cafes. The best restaurants will be usually be on that square. And churches, so old churches, cathedrals, they're usually always on the town square.

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Oh, how lovely.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah. So beer glasses and beer stones and anything beer related in Belgium is huge.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Okay. Christmas Day there, do they normally because you know how every country is so different? Would they normally uh is it a family thing where they stay at home or is it a restaurant thing or very much a family thing, very, very much.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

But they are out walking. Okay. They are out, yeah. Christmas Day and Christmas night, they're out walking the market square, going to, you know, the ice skating rink or getting local foods. All the families are out walking.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

Oh, so is the mark is the Christmas markets open on Christmas Day?

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Yes, very much so. Oh, okay. Okay. So you'd have um anywhere south in Europe are usually uh more Catholic. Okay. So their Christmas Eve will be the night before, and Christmas is celebrated midnight.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Okay, yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

And uh these open presidents wake up Christmas morning and it's just family time. They don't they don't have actual rituals for Christmas morning, so they'll go out to the marketplace.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Ah, okay. And so is it so you know how every oh every place is different. Would you then recommend staying in a hotel or like an Airbnb then if it was like I said, it's a very small city.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yeah. Big hotels. I don't remember big home modern hotels around there, but lots of like Airbnb and smaller hotels, and there will be some big hotels. I just don't remember them because I always like apartments now.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

So I rented the most amazing apartment for Christmas. Fine upson because I was so busy moving three three households to Singapore, and I'd booked this place in a hurry because we had like five of us and I needed a big place. And we walked up in this beautiful apartment. It was amazing. I couldn't believe I got it for the price I got it for. But we go upstairs, it has a beautiful balcony with a view over the main cathedral in Bruges. Wow. And then you go to the kitchen, which is on the other side of the apartment, and the local church in a square is all lit up from that window. Oh wow, that was incredible. So if you look, you'll find plenty of those sorts of places. Okay, and small old fashioned Holland is very much the same old-fashioned smaller hotels, family run. Yeah, you walk up 10 hundred steps with your back. Yeah. But with Bruges, it's not near the train station. It's probably about a kilometer if you're walking. Ah, maybe even from memory. So it's probably about a 20-minute walk from the train station. So that's something to be mindful of.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

And cobblestone streets as well. Cobblestone streets. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

So nighttime, if your bag is locusts, probably won't be very happy with you. Trying to rove in the daytime.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Yeah, I've been there. Do you know? I I only cried once because I had the biggest bag, and I was uh just uh by the time I got to the hotel, and then I had to climb the fourth, like they thought they were doing me a favor by yeah, they were being so lovely and they upgraded me. How lovely. That's so nice. But it was all the way to the top in the fourth floor. I just cried. That's the only time I cried.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

We stayed a place in Amsterdam once that the stairs were that steep. We couldn't carry the bags up straight up.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

We did that as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

It's all the lot of walking, not a lot of elevators and escalators in these old European towns. So that's something to be very mindful of. Travel with a case you can easily pick up and carry around.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Yeah, and I guess at Christmas time too, it'd be hard because you're carrying all those layers of clothes.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

So you'd be able to get and it's cold anyway, so is it snowing there? Uh I've not seen snow in Bruges. Yeah, probably wood.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Yeah, but it's cold enough to snow, I guess. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Yeah, the year we were there. Oh, frost.

SPEAKER_03 12:59

So was there any standout experience or moment that made this trip kind of unforgettable?

SPEAKER_01 13:04

The one I just mentioned, the view that we had from each window that I still I'm looking at my photos this morning going, that was a man, that was incredible. That was so good. Couldn't go well on the balcony because it was too cold.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

But just just the history of Bruce and the the main cathedral in town has a special um spire that you can climb up the stairs. And I think we did count when we were there in the late 90s, and you know, there's hundreds. Yeah. Old stone spiral steps up the top, but the view at the top is so worth it. And there's lots lots of those cathedrals all around Europe that have the stairs up the spiral, and you go up and you can walk around the top, and the view is incredible. And I rise to there.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Uh, okay, so it's a yeah, okay, I get what you mean. So I guess at Christmas you can go to Mass if if that's your thing. Recommended, yes. I guess it'd be different with Phil. I guess. Churches are beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

And some of them are in full Latin. Okay. If you're a good Catholic, you'll know what's happening anyway. You just go along with it. But it is a special experience because the churches, of course, anyone who's been to Europe knows the churches over there are incredible.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

Yeah. Oh wow. Okay, you're inspiring me. I can feel myself convincing the family to go to Europe to especially to Bruges for Christmas. Especially for Christmas.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Yeah, yeah. It is a small city, so in summer it's very crowded, very, very crowded.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

So is winter not so much? No, winter not so much, no. I mean, it's not more there than normal, but in summer it's where everyone goes.

unknown 14:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Instagrammable.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Yeah, I guess in is it leafy? Not really.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Yes, all European cities have the beautiful big old trees everywhere. Yeah, so it's it's okay. You'll you'll cool down enough, it's just gonna be crowded. I know, especially there's like funny enough, one of the most Instagrammable bridges in Bruges is where my husband booked the first time we went there. We had to figure out that it was that popular. And even back then in the late 90s, when social media was not a thing, it was where everyone stopped to take photos. So walking that bridge would be difficult because everyone's stopping to take photos. It's it's not a big city, it's very small.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

So I wonder what autumn and spring might be.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah, I must say I've not been there autumn and spring, only summer and I'll have to have a look at that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Okay. Did you have any cultural experiences or interactions with locals?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Uh uh one experience always stands out. And my funny enough, my daughter, I've got a picture of her yesterday in the same scarf in 2018 and in the Christmas markets. And we just, as they do, the locals who run the markets are just amazing people and they love a chat. Walking around the markets, you can, you know, they'll tell you all about their products and this lady specifically, but this are beautiful, like fur scarf, it's gorgeous. And she just told us all about her market stall and her life in Bruges and her family, and and they speak English, most people? They oh most of most of especially that part of you speak very, very good English. The older generation, if you're looking 60, 70 plus, not as fantastic, but yeah, from the 50s onwards, I think English became a common language in school. So most of them speak English now. But Belgium's tricky because it's half French and half Dutch.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

They'll either speak French or Dutch or Flemish. And in Bel in Bruges itself, they all speak they speak all French. I think it's closer to the Dutch part of Holland. So my husband spoke Dutch to everyone in Bruge and they were fine with that.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

That's good. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

I didn't realize it's a form of Dutch, it's just a a French version of Dutch.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

Yeah. Okay. So you could get around. And is it a walkable city then?

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Absolutely. Yes. Once, like I said, once you get into town and once you're there, everything's an easy walking distance. And you can just spend days walking around. Finding old cafes is one of my favorite things to do.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

I love going to a really old cafe with the chairs and the tables out the front, and you go in and it looks like it was decorated in 1920 and it's changed, and they're playing old-fashioned music and the best coffee and the best food from those sorts of places. The local food, you want to eat it from the oldest cafe you can find.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Nice. I imagine eat everything would be warm food at that time of year. Heavy, heavy, heavy.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Yes. Mashed potatoes, sausages, sauerkrauts, stewed meats in beautiful casseroles. That's that's their fair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

That's nice. Yeah, yeah, you've totally convinced me. Everyone should see it. But not every yeah, not everyone when I'm going. I'm not telling you where my pup.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

No way.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Yeah, and I'm not telling you when I'm going there either. So, what's one thing you wish you knew before you left or before you went?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

It's tricky because my husband's Europe, we spent half our lives in Europe.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

So no, I I was pretty well prepared. The fair very first time we went there, my husband was a surprise for a birthday. I can't even remember which birthday it was. And he booked the place because it had a hundred types of beer. That was the draw card. So it's my birthday, my trip. And he booked it because it had a hundred types of beer. He's he had also surprised me inviting our best friends. Oh no, that's nice. And he was it, he went to school with this guy, so he's his best friend in the world. And yes, they had a great old time drinking all.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Thank you. Thank you, Deborah, for coming on today. Just I'm very excited, and I and that's because Deborah and I go way back. We have been friends. Can I say I think it's 22 years?

SPEAKER_02 19:29

I think it's like 22 years. 28 issues?

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Yeah, 27. I'll say that out loud. So our kids, let's say, to put it into context, our babies went to school together who are now in their 20s. So we were friends. 23 years. So we've been friends for 23 years. We met in Australia, but I was lucky enough to have Deborah Cup out to Singapore. So she's now my friend in Singapore. So let's get started. Let's find out about you and your expat journey before we get into your destination. Where are you from? How long have you been here? You know, all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Okay. My husband and I moved to Singapore in 20, the end of 2018. Michael works for Citibank. And I met Michael in 1993. And from 1995, when we bought our four first apartment together, he spent all his time travelling to Singapore. So I spent a lot of time alone in the late 90s. So then he left Citibank and we moved to London for four years. Then we came back, he moved back into Citibank, and they kept trying to get him to move over to Singapore. And for me, I just moved back to Australia. You had little kids that were going to start school. So I thought, no, no, I want the kids to go to school. I want them to have friends. I want them to just finish school together. So finally, Angelique literally was graduating in year 12, and Citibank said, right, your job here's ended, your job's now in Singapore. So here we are.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Awesome. And I'm very lucky to have you here with me. So let's get into your destination. Where have you chosen and why have you chosen it?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

It was it. I thought it would have been a hard question because I travel a lot and I love travel. My husband's European, so he he knows Europe quite well. But there's one destination.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Thank you, Deborah, for coming on today. Just I'm very excited, and I and that's because Deborah and I go way back. We have been friends. Can I say? I think it's 22 years.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

I think it's like 22 years. 28 this year?

SPEAKER_03 21:27

Yeah, 27. I'll say that out loud. So our kids, let's say to put it into context, our babies went to school together who are now in their 20s. So we were friends. 22 years that'll be then. 23 years. So we've been friends for 23 years. We met in Australia, but I was lucky enough to have Deborah Cup out to Singapore. So she's now my friend in Singapore. So let's get started. Let's find out about you and your expat journey before we get into your destination. Where are you from? How long have you been here? You know, all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Okay. My husband and I moved to Singapore in 20, end of 2018. Michael works for Citibank. And I met Michael in 1993. And from 1995, when we bought our four first apartment together, he spent all his time travelling to Singapore. So I spent a lot of time alone in the late 90s. So then he left Citibank and we moved to London for four years. Then we came back, he moved back into Citibank, and they kept trying to get him to move over to Singapore. And for me, I just moved back to Australia. I had little kids that were going to start school. So I thought, no, no, I want the kids to go to school. I want them to have friends. I want them to just finish school together. So finally Angelique literally was graduating in year 12 and Citibank said, Right, your job here's ended. Your job's now in Singapore. So here we are.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

Awesome. And I'm very lucky to have you here with me. So let's get into your destination. Where have you chosen and why have you chosen it?

SPEAKER_01 22:59

It was it I thought it would have been a hard question because I travel a lot and I love travel. My husband's European, so he he knows Europe quite well. But there's one destination that keeps springing to my mind, and it's Bruges in Belgium.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Okay. Been there? No, I haven't, but I'm really excited to go deep into why you've chosen it. But before we get there, what kind of traveler are you?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

I I thought long and hard about this question, and I think I don't I'm not a great planner. I'm I'm a great planner in that ADHD, and I will write everything down and I will spend ages looking through maps, choosing all my places to visit, looking at my accommodation really carefully and choosing it because it's close to this and near that. But when it I love spontaneity when I travel. Okay. I will plan the hell out of getting there and what to do while I'm there. But I will wake up every day. My thankfully, my husband's the same, and we'll go, what will we see today? Oh, I like that. I love traveling that way. So I don't have specific travel goals in mind usually. Sometimes it's a family event, sometimes it's you know, like we're going to Switzerland again for Christmas this year. Sometimes there's goals in mind because we ski and we love skiing in Switzerland. But I like to just travel for the sake of going somewhere pretty and then deciding what sort of travel I'll be on that trip. Oh, okay. That's a different way. Tomorrow we're f we're flying out to Malaysia. Ah, okay. To celebrate our wedding anniversary, and that's the relaxation one. That's where we go to this resort. It's all expenses paid, and you do nothing.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Just lie by the pool, read books and drink cocktails.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Is that this type of holiday? That's that we're talking about the Malaysia. But what about the destination that we're talking about? But with Bruges, when I go to Europe, it's all about history and culture. So join us again next week on Truly Expat Travel Podcast, where I have another exciting destination in a world that's too big to be left unexplored. Shaffanel