Welcome and meet historian Joseph Walker

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Truly Expat Travel Podcast. I'm your host, Paula, and this is season two. On season one, I talk to expats about their favorite holiday destination. On season two, I'll be doing things very differently. I'll be chatting to expats about where they currently live, why they chose that destination, all those secret hidden gems that only locals know, you know, like favorite restaurants, best neighborhoods, things that tourists don't. Welcome to the Truly Expat Travel Podcast. I'm your host, Paula, and I always have an exciting guest, but today's a really exciting guest because they're talking about a place that I love. It's a part of, well, some of it's part of my heritage. And so I'm really excited to talk to Joseph and let him explain who he is, where he's from, and why are we talking about this particular destination? So welcome, Joseph.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Thanks for having me, Paula. I love your podcast, by the way. So thank you so much for for having me here so we can have a conversation. And when the conversation goes to Italy, I become very excited. But if it starts to veer off to southern Italy and Sicily, then the excitement just keeps building. But but I do a couple of different things, Paula. One is that I'm the director of an international tour operator, and we have offices in Italy and France and Portugal, US, Canada, Brazil, and Australia. So we do send a lot of North American clients to all of these destinations. But my particular passion is Italy. And when it comes to Italy, even though I'm the so-called director, I tend to be much more hands-on because for me it's like my baby and I'm very, very passionate about it. But but I I have been working in or around Italy for 36, 37 years now. Wow. I always tell people 19 just so that they can't can't date me too well. But but I've been working around a long time in in Italy. But I but I'm currently sitting right now in southern Florida, which is where the last several years I've been living more than anywhere else. But I'm always asked, well, what does that mean you're living more there? And I said, Well, you know, we all have to go through our Odyssey, right? We all have to. I left Italy to come back to the U.S. at some point. And my wife's originally from Rio de Janeiro. And so the climate's very similar here. So we said, uh, this will be a good place. But you know what? I lived in Italy for many years. And that's where I'm going back to now, even though I think South Florida's great, but I need to be in Italy because that's where my passion and my heart are. And that's also where I have two daughters that live as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Ah, okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

So, and so I I I have a small son, and so he won

Why Italy keeps calling us back

SPEAKER_00 3:10

he wants to be reunited with his sisters, and I need to to be around them, and I also need to be where the passion is.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's something about Italy, once you go, you just have to keep going back, you know, and uh there is some things that frustrate me about Italy, especially southern Italy, but there are so many wonderful things. And you know, I always say it's so bizarre for me. My dad migrated to Australia for a better life, you know, and here I am heading back to Sicily to try and buy property for a better life. You know, it's just ironic.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

No, but it's a great, great quality of of of life, and and a lot of people don't know that because they say, well, the southern Italy and Sicily, they were just so poor and that's why everybody left. And I said, No, at a certain moment in history of 3,000 years, for a small brief moment, they were poor. But for most of the history and most of the time, southern Italy and Sicily have been together, they formed one of the richest kingdoms of Europe.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Century after century.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

I think people don't realize that, right? That that actually the wealthy and the nobles, they were actually southern Italians. You know, it's just after you know the rain and everything that changed, then it all went up north. But yeah, it was rich for such a long time.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yes. And I'm always very careful because I have a lot of friends who are in northern northern Italy, and it and

Is Naples safe? Its bad reputation explained

SPEAKER_00 4:40

I'm gonna share this podcast with them, so I can't uh I love you guys too, so I'm not gonna say Well, I love yeah, I love northern Italy as well because all my family has all gone up to northern Italy, so I don't really have any in southern Italy anymore, but I still my heart is is is southern Italy.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

So today though, we are gonna talk about Naples in particular, and there's a reason. And let's get started about why Naples? Why does it have a bad rap? Why do people tend to think, you know, I'm gonna stay clear of Naples? And why do you think that they're wrong?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Well Naples did have a crime problem for a while, a lot of pickpockets, but the pickpocketing in Naples generally, not all the time, but generally has not been of the sort that you might find in North America or something like that, where it can tend to go towards the really bad. The pickpockets in Naples, especially because I I lived in and around Naples for 17 years, it tends to be the type on a Vespa or a Moltorino where they get the wallet, they take the money out, but but then they throw you back the wallet because they don't want you to, you know, to be too much out.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Inconsiderate Considerate thieves.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

So there was this, and then there was the whole mystique, I think, of the Kamora, which is the name for the mafia in i in Naples. So one would think, wow, this place this place is dangerous, etc. And then when you go downtown, it's still to this day a little seedy. But but the seediness is more of it's a superficial thing. It's not really that seedy. We have to remember that Naples is one of the oldest cities in Western Europe. That just north of there, the oldest Greek colony was founded at Kuma. It made its way to Potzwale, also known as Diachia in the old language. And then they had Partenape, the old city, and then about 2,500 years ago they built a new city, a Neapolis, a Neapolis Napoli. So this new city, this brand new city that we're talking about, it's about uh 2,500 years old or so, but it has a lot of buildings that are still standing, you know, from the Middle Ages, from the Renaissance and before. And it got hit heavy

Underground Naples: Greek, Roman and early Christian layers

SPEAKER_00 7:11

in World War II. So there's still a little bit of damage from World War II, but you can go down and go to the Paleo-Christian level, then you can walk down and walk on real Roman streets underneath the modern day streets, and you're in a Roman city, and then you can look down and you are in the Agora, the heart of Greek Neapolis. So Greek, Roman, Paleo Christian will bring you back up to the top of the medieval streets of Naples. So it just looks like a place that has had a really good and long life because it has. And so people have this, you know, it's a little seedy looking, so therefore it's bad and it had some problems, especially after World War II. But what they don't get is that Naples has one of the largest underground sections in all of Italy, in all of Europe.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

It also it also has one of the most delightful culinary cultures in in all of Italy, and everybody thinks of the pizza, but yes, modern pizza was invented in Naples. You have to eat it in Naples. You'll eat a good pizza outside of Naples, especially if it's a Neapolitan pizza, but it won't be the same as eating it in Naples. And so you learn about all

How Naples invented modern pizza

SPEAKER_00 8:29

of this history that's very unique to the place. Like, for example, everybody 2,000 years ago had flat bread that they would put stuff on. But it was the Neapolitans who in the 1700s really started to say, you know, nobody wants to eat these tomatoes that are coming from the New World because they're poisonous. Well, let's give it a go. Let's let's let's see what happens. And the pot the population was already a million people. It was the most densely populated city in Europe at the time. And so they created a pizza by i eating this forbidden fruit. Uh and and the rest is is history, so to speak. So history, the culinary, but as soon as you get outside of Naples, you're in the land of myth and legend, right there in the area that's called the Flagrayan fields or Kempi Flagray, it means burning fields. You've got volcanoes stacked on top of volcanoes,

Campi Flegrei: myths, volcanoes and the gates of Hades

SPEAKER_00 9:27

stacked on top of volcano. That's where Hercules fought the Gurion. That is where the uh trumpeter of the Trojan war hero died. And yeah, and the the Gulf of Potsualo is actually in the ancient period called the Gulf of Triton. And so you've got all of this wonderful stuff, including Apollo. Apollo, you know, he his myth was there too. There's a temple on on top of uh Kuma, and it's dedicated to Apollo, and that is where Daedalus, father of Icarus, landed after his son died because he flew too high near near the sun, right? And so you start bringing in all of these things together, and it becomes hard to understand what is legend and myth and what is history, but I always say Vulcanism created mythology, which created history, because for example, Octavian in his good buddy Agrippa, which if you ever go to Rome and there's the pantheon, it says, Agrippa, fetch it, Agrippa made this.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Right?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

So he went out and defeated his arch enemy, Pompey, because the Sybil, the high priestess of Apollo, told him it was time to do so, and that is myth acting directly intervening into history. And so there's all all these stories. One of the great entryways to Hades is right there, Paulusacerusia. It is the river of woe. Today it's known as Lago di Averno. But when you go to Naples, the crime is not as bad as you've heard. Absolutely not as bad. The food is better than you can ever imagine, but the history, the myths, and the legends there are divine.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

I I do think I do think with Naples, I remember years like a long time ago, we based ourselves in Naples because there's so much to see outside of Naples as well, right? Because you've got you we went to the Isle of Capri from there, we went to Pompeii from there. You know, there is so much more to Naples than I think people realise. And it's also much more affordable than going to the uh the not the Isle of Capri, what's the the area near there?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Sorrento in the Amalficos. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Thank you, Amalphicos. Told you, I forget words these days.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Positano, that's a pretty pity, as we say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Yeah. So it's just it's an amazing place to so and it's funny you talk about Apollo because when we went to when we went to Pompeii, my my son was little at the time, and we gave everybody the the choice of where do you want to go in Italy. You do some research, and he would have been about six or seven. We had to go to Apollo's house. For whatever reason, we had to go to Apollo's house in Pompeii. You know, it was a very, very hot day. There is no shelter there, and it was the very last house that we saw in the whole area. It was like the furthest away. So I that is sketched in my memory forever.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Well, well, uh I have my my own Apollo story too, and it's in its uh true story that I was at this place, Kuma, and I was up on that temple, the Temple of Apollo, and throughout my life I've led a lot of small groups around uh around Diddley. So I get into my thing because I love it, and and I'm saying, we're on the Temple of Apollo, and I tell my stories, and the the the group, about eight or nine

Joseph's Apollo moment at Cumae

SPEAKER_00 13:01

people, the right in in front of me, and it's kind of cold and it's rainy, misty, uh cloudy. And then I said, This was where Apollo was, and we shall ask for the divine Apollo to show us his light, you know, and uh and everybody's like, ha ha. Then on cue, a ray of light comes beaming out of the out of the sky, the mist stops, and the light is between them and me, and we we're just staring at each other for 20 seconds, and I said, I'm never asking Apollo for anything ever again. I am so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Oh, that's so funny. If only we could have recorded that, that would have been like the best movie part piece of a movie. Uh I think there's so much history in not just Italy, especially in Rome. So, you know, I know that you have a story to tell as well about a sunken ship. Well, how does that come about? Can you tell us?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Well, even better, this was uh sunken city.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Uh oh, noise ships. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

And so this is uh a cool story. I I I always tell my wife this is kind of my origin story where I stopped being just a visitor and I wanted to be a historian and wanted to teach people the history. But but uh many eons ago, around 1990, I was in the US Navy. And of course I said, yeah, just send me some word. So they sent me to Italy. So it's like, okay. At

Discovering the sunken city of Portus Julius

SPEAKER_00 15:19

the time I didn't know how how how lucky I was, but within a few days of being in Italy, I absolutely loved it and said, I don't want to go home. I want to make this my home. But when I was in the Naples area, because I was originally stationed in Gaeta, this beautiful seaside uh resort village about an hour north of there, but I went down close to Naples to that area of the Campy Flagrey again. And just talking to people, because I'm very curious by nature, they were telling me of the Atlantis of Italy. And they said, This is funny, there's no Atlantis, there's no this, there's no that. But this is before the internet, you know, could could could tell us truths and lies and abundance. And so I really had to ask people, what is this? And they said, we don't know, we don't know. And so I decided by myself because nobody else was interested. I said, I want to go out there because I hear it could be Roman, it could be something else, it could be, you know, the Loch Ness monster visiting the Mediterranean. We really don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

And so I I hired a fisherman and he took me out onto the water. And uh it was springtime, so it was it was kind of cool that I started seeing these hulking like like shapes underneath the water. And the fisherman said, Oh yeah, there's something down there. It could even be, you know, walls, but I don't really know because uh because I'm not going in there. You know, it's it's dangerous in me, you know. I didn't even speak Italian too well back then. So I said, C C C va bene, va bene, okay, okay. And so much to his chagrin, I just jumped into the water and said, Well, I'm gonna see what's what's going on. So I swam around, and after a minute or two, I said, These are walls, but what type of walls? Because they had all different types of algae and all this other stuff that that's on them. So I dove to the bottom about 10 to 12 feet, which is three or four meters in in depth. And I and I wiped away the silt on the bottom, and lo and behold, it was a Roman mosaic.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

And yes, and then I started to go more, started to swim more and more, snorkeling all around. I found statuary, I found vases and amphorae from from wine, from olive oil, and I was just absolutely taken back. So I go back up, I'm speechless, I don't know what to say. So the fisherman, you know, he just offered me some some wine, olives, cheese, and bread, and we just we we just sat there. But it but it was at that second, that very moment, I said, Italy is for me, I love this place, I love history, and I want to find out what this place is and what every other place is. So it was uh it was right then, but I eventually found over time that some archaeologists, you know, decades before knew what it was more or less, but it had been forgotten and it this information had not been disseminated, so I rediscovered it. And today it's a multimillion euro business for the locals doing diving and snorkeling, etc. But I was the one who rediscovered it for tourism.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah, and so and I still go there quite quite often. I I'll be there again in a couple weeks. And uh and so, but that place is wonderful. It's called Portus Julius. It was a military harbor that opened up into the sea, but it they channeled into Lago de Verde. Remember the river of woe, which is sitting inside of a volcano with a beautiful lake there, so they could pass through the ships through there, they could come out through Portus Julius. But the whole city itself, through something it's called Bradycism, it's the rising and falling of the landmass due to the magma pressure underneath, it sank below the surface and it sits there. But not only did it sink, but some villas, such as the one Nero and Claudius, had also sunk as well. So that whole area, it's a sunken city, it's villas, it is one of the most amazing places in Italy, and 99% of the people do not visit it. Which can be good. Which can be crowded.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

But but yeah, that's that that's the sunken sunken city story.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

And that's so cool. I have to say, that is really cool. That's a that's a stamp in your book of things that you can claim are very cool things that you've done. I'm impressed. Thank you. I'm very impressed. I don't dive, but if I did, I would be going. I'm too afraid. I'm one of those people that are a chicken. But it's not diving.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

There's not too much down there, just just Roman stuff is uh, but that's so fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

I mean, it it's one of those places where I think anybody that does dive must go to because how many other places in the world can you say that there's a sunken city?

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Just uh just just a handful, and this is one of the best. Because some of the statuary that they have pulled out now sits, there is a castle that sits looking over the region. It's called the Castello Aragonese, or the Castello di Baia, the Baia Castle, the Aragonese castle. And uh a lot of what they found is inside of there, but there's something even cooler that's there too, is that that castle, which is it's brand new, it's only 500 years old, right? So, but but it's sitting to an ozie, that's like very ancient. But but it's sitting right on top of Julius Caesar's villa, the Julius Caesar. Yes. And they just opened it up in the last year. I've already been three times, of course, because you know I've got to, you know, I've got to do it. But that exact spot is where Cleopatra was when Julius Caesar was murdered in Rome.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

So everything that you're doing, you're looking at these buildings, you're looking at the walls, and the way that I always approach history is that there's a person or a story that you get to meet. It's almost like time travel, but you get to meet somebody behind there, right? I love that.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

I love that. I it's such a shame because I'm going to be in Italy in a few weeks, but I'm literally just catching a train in Naples. That's because I'm going to Sorrento. So it's such a shame that I'm

Julius Caesar's villa at Baia Castle

SPEAKER_02 21:58

not actually spending a little bit more time there because it would have been I think I'm going to do a next year. You get you you've convinced me that next year when I go back I'm gonna have to do more than just a visiting through the train like by the train. So you meant you did mention before that you have to try pizza. We all know we have to try pizza when we're in Naples. What other dishes do you think people should try while they're there? Is there anything to the region besides pizza?

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Well, there's all all different types of pastas and all different types of cheeses and all in all different types of wines, and it's very hard for me to narrow it down because some of the dishes are Neapolitan, but some of the dishes are other from other regions. But the Neapolitans Really make them s something else. If i if you like the carbonara, I would definitely have a carbonara in Naples. I would also yes, I would I would also have spaghetti if you like clams and mussels, etc. You've got to have it in Naples. I could go on and on on this, but I'm gonna move to cheese now. And you know that the mozzarella di bufala, which you know, the it's it's quite popular now. It's not an inexpensive cheese, because those

What to eat and drink in Naples

SPEAKER_00 23:15

who know a little bit say, I like the mozzarella di bufala, right? But they don't know that a hundred years ago this was almost like the poor man or poor woman's cheese. This was not something that was like, you know, ooh, but but for me it always has been. But the that cheese, when you eat it in the Naples area, it is totally different from eating it anywhere else. It doesn't tra it doesn't travel as well as some other cheeses, especially those cheeses from the north. So you've got to do that. You've got to have the tomatoes locally, the San Marzano tomatoes, the ones that are grown on the slopes of the Suvius. But then you've got to try the wines of the region. Like one of my favorites is the Lacrimi Criste. It's a strong, bold red wine that's that's that's cultivated along the slopes of a Suvius, and you pair that with a nice ragu or pasta with a ragu sauce, and it makes all the difference in the world. But if you like a white, I would go with a phalangina, which is just outside of uh the Naples area, because that is that's like a cousin of the Falernian. And so, what is Falernian? Well, that is what Julius Caesar drink, that's what Pliny the Elder drink, and that's what Cicero drink. And so you're you're you're drinking history there. You're eating history, you're drinking history.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

I love that. I love that you're drinking and eating history. Okay, I'm gonna see it in a very different light next time I go to Italy. I feel like I'm gonna be drinking eating with friends of the past, you know, sitting around. I'm gonna try it all. You've you've persuade me to try it all.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Good, very good.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

And it's so I know that you said that you you've been there a long time. If a friend came to visit you and only had a couple of days, where would you take them to Naples? Where where are the the places that you think you as a friend would take them? Or as a tour guide, because you're you're a historian, tour guide, like you know the region.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Well, I I would definitely take them downtown, of course. I would take them to see the Castel del Ovo, the egg castle, because it sits on top of an egg that's related to the siren Partinape who was chasing Ulysses or Odysseus around. I I would take them over to the new castle, then I would take them to the Gallery Umberto, I would take them to Piazza Plebiscito for the grandiose view of the Bourbon kingdom a couple hundred years ago, but then I would cut right to the center, and I would see medieval Naples through its churches, Renaissance Naples through its churches, and then I would take them to the underground, and there's like three different places that you can go to the underground, Paleo-Christian, Roman, Greek, because it's very important to understand that. And then I would take them to eat the best pizza that they're ever gonna eat in their life, right there. And all of that it sounds quick, but that's actually about uh four hours.

How to spend two days in Naples

SPEAKER_00 26:20

And then if they still have energy, I'm gonna take them to the National Museum, the Museo Nazionale, and that's because it has all of those pieces from Pompeii and Herculaneum and ancient Naples housed there.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Okay. I mean, yeah, because there's so much history. Is there any day trips that you would suggest as well? Because a it's a really great base, like it really is a good base.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Well, the the day trips, of course, I would say try and do a day trip to Campy Flagrey, go out to Capri, but if it's in high season, I say go out to the island of Ischia. It is it's a little bigger that than Capria, but but Ischia has a quieter, calmer vibe about it. And if you're saying, well, I want a smaller place, then go to Prochida. Okay. If I go if I go to Ischia, I'm gonna go there for the saunas, the baths, etc. Ah, yeah. Yeah. But if I go to Prochida, I'm going to look at those beautiful colored houses that they have there because if every fisherman would would paint their house a different color so that they could recognize it when they were coming back home to fish. And uh and there's also other things there too, such as there's this area, you have to have permission, but there's an area called Vivara that's connected to Prochida, and that is one of the great Mycenaean trading hubs during this period of the Odyssey. And yes, and people know about the vases and a lot of the

Best day trips: Capri, Ischia and Procida

SPEAKER_00 27:52

the Mycenaean culture, because they always said, Well, did they ever go to Italy? Now we know, oh yes, and they they set up shop, and that's one of the reasons why a lot of the Odyssey is based right along this coast from Naples going up.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Ah, okay. And how would you get to these places? What's the best way to get there?

SPEAKER_00 28:11

The best way to get there would be on an organized tour, but just try and make sure that it's a small group, not 50 of your best friends, because you want to have a, you know, and then you have to make sure that there's a little bit of free time. I love structured, hey, we're gonna get into the history and the culture, we're gonna eat, we're gonna do this stuff, but I also love and respect a few hours on your own so you can make your own discoveries. So that's the easiest way. But if you say, okay, I've just got some time, I may not even go on an organized program, you can take the ferry right there out of Naples or nearby Poultswally to any of the islands, Capri, Ischia, or Procida. And that is how that that's how you get out there.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

It's very cool. It's just um and uh during what is the best season to travel to Naples, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Well, I would say the springtime, but try try and avoid May 1st, if you can. Because it's yeah, it's it's a very very big holiday. But April is great, the rest of May is fantastic. June is absolutely, I would say, the busiest season now. It it never was until recently, Paula. It yeah, it really was not. But now everybody says, well, I'm not gonna go in July and August, which is the high season.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

So I I'm gonna go in June. And so now

Getting around: ferries and small-group tours

SPEAKER_00 29:28

it is jam-packed in June. So I say that's the month you don't really want to deal with. July and August tend to be very hot. But sometimes a late September can be really good, or a late October can be fantastic.

unknown 29:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

But not early October. But then but then there's one other curveball, as I like to call it. Until recently, I would say August, no way, avoid it. High season, terrible, don't go, et cetera. But now so many people are avoiding their August that August is now becoming better than May Day or June or early October. And you have all of these festivals in the towns outside of Naples because they open up their cantinas, and there's several places in the hinterland of Naples in the Campania region, where you can do divine wine tasting for about 10 euros. You you can walk walk out of that town, or maybe walkings,

Best time to visit Naples (and when to avoid)

SPEAKER_00 30:27

stumble out of that town very happy.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

I'm also really surprised because last year I went, I was in Sicily in May, and man, it was heaving. Can I just say I was so shocked at how busy May was because I always say, go May, go May, May and September. I love May and September in in Italy and Europe in general, because you know, there's no crowds, and I feel like it's really hard now to deserve determine which month to go. I just know that any time for me, busy or not busy, Italy is quite special. You know, I I'm with you.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Uh I'm gonna go regardless, and I'll just make my plans to to avoid. But may May can still be okay, but but because Sicily in May is already warm, it attracts a lot of people who are saying, I I'm gonna go to the beach in May.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

But but I would still e if you can do in April, if you're going there more for history, culture, culinary.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Beautiful panoramas with all the flowers coming out, April is fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Yeah. So that's good to know. I think most people don't want to go in that the the busy season if they can avoid it, especially if they don't have to anymore. Someone like me, I don't have little kids anymore, so I don't have to go through the holiday season.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

And is August, it's interesting because quite often all the Italians go on holiday in August, right? So is August do shops close in August or is it safe to still you did you did mention August before? It's still quite busy.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

It's still quite busy, and uh half the shops can be closed, but they're not closed like in perpetuity. They're closed like this week we're closed. Hey, but that but the guy next door is is open. So in you know, i instead of having 50 pizzerias open, you've got 25 open. You know, so yeah. And it uh and then I'm asked, well, can I go to the beach? And I say, well, in August, I would say avoid the beach because you have 30 million Italians on the beach. So you don't want to do that. You you go into the cities for culture, or you go into the hinterland for for for when they open up the cantinas. So you eat well, you drink well, and it's a little fresher in the mountains, so it's a win-win.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Do you have any tips or hacks for anyone who's thinking to come to Naples this year or next year or whenever?

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Well, I would say if you want to travel with purpose, so that is to understand the place, to to really enjoy the place, I would say get with an expert who knows the region very, very well

Visiting Naples in August

SPEAKER_00 33:11

because somebody, because that's what I do and some others, so it doesn't have to just be me. But we will build something around you and your budget, but most importantly, around your interest. And I always, for example, add in things that you probably would not have thought about, but you can't Google. These aren't Googleable places because they're all gated by relationships. And I've got 35 years of relationships. And so that is a hack in itself. Like, for example, there near Nirkuma is the oldest. Remember Kuma, the oldest Greek colony in the West, because I know that may be a new word for for for some of the audience, but but Nirkuma is the oldest amphitheater the Romans ever built. Some people say, well, it's not quite an amphitheater, it's a it's a half amphitheater. I read online that Pompeii is the oldest, but it's wrong. It's just perpetuating a myth. But right there, when I went into this place, there was just a gate and there was some some academic study program that was going there, really since the Brits had opened it up around 1900 and then then the Americans got in there. But there was this amphitheater. And lo and behold, I'm looking at it, uh, and I know that I'm not supposed to be in there, but hey, you know, the place isn't there the place wasn't on any map at that time anyway, so I'm I I'm literally off the grid. But they're grow but they're growing grapes in there, they're they're growing tomatoes in there, they have lemons, oranges all around the seats. And so I'm

Insider tip: the hidden Italy you can't Google

SPEAKER_00 34:54

talking to the family and they explain things to me. And uh, you know, they're a little bit uh, you know, this this uh American or what does he want? We don't know. So over the next two years, I developed a relationship with his family that they invited me back at the very end of summer. They allowed me to do the harvest with them of grapes. I got to actually get in those big tubs that you're not supposed to do anymore, but uh but they still do it, I've heard. Um, but you get these big tubs and you get to smash all of the grapes. It was so much fun, and then we ate like gods and goddesses afterwards. And I it and I remember what the owner told me because I said, Don Vito, but what how how long have you been here? He goes, I don't know. My family's been here since the Middle Ages. I can't tell you before then, but we've been here for a thousand years. And I said, Because we're eating, and he interrupts me and he goes, Yes, we're eating overlooking the places where gladiators fought.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Wow, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

And so these are relationships, and that's the Italy that you want. Like, for example, if you were going down to Calabria, I would make sure that you went by the Grotter di Romito, Grotta di Romito, because that place now you can kind of get in there, but sometimes, you know, you you know, it's you know, it's a little touch and go. But there's a 20,000-year-old painted bull at the entrance of this cave that's guarding the inside where this couple is a bra embracing each other for eternity in their 11,000 years old. And I and I discovered this from local Italians because they trusted me after a while that they started to tell me about all of these hidden places that you're not going to be able to find so easily on your own. And that's your hack is to find somebody who will open those gates for you so that you get to do it's not just bragging rights. You're literally going into Italy. You're not going to Italy, you're going into Italy. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

I love that. So tell me, how can people find you? Where where can we find you if we want to find out more about you or hire you or let them know.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

The the easiest way is that I have uh two distinct profiles, right? One is I have my chameleon travel shop. That's my international tour operator. But, you know, and that's where we operate tours, but my passion, my love is the storytelling. And I do that at Italian History with Joseph.com, right? And you can find me there, but there's one thing that I want you to put on the the end of that. If you go to Italian History with Joseph.com forward slash expat, you will not only go there and find me, but you're going to be able to download a my field notes of seven places that no amount of Googling will help you get in. And I explain how the relationships, you know, uh allow us to get in there. Then you're going to be able to get a free chapter of my book. I wrote a book called Buried Iddly, and this is a free chapter that is not in the book. And and it is based upon Narni. And if you say Narni or Narnia, you're not you're

Bonus: Calabria's 11,000-year-old Grotta del Romito

SPEAKER_00 38:23

not you're not too far off. Narnia was based on Narni in southern Umbria. So we discussed that in this magical world. And there's also an underground town underneath Narni or Narnia as as well. And uh, and then you're going to get something else that's cool, is that we're we run some of these specialized cultural and historical tours. You get access 72 hours before anybody else gets on there. And because because our average group size Paula is around 10.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Good. Yeah. Nice size.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

They're they're small. That's how we get into grottos and you know, and we squeeze our ways into amphitheaters that aren't on maps, etc. But you get that, and you get one other thing that you have to go there to find out.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

And there you also get access to the my social media, but you can also go to Instagram, Facebook, or whatever. It's Italian History with Joseph. And every week I'm telling

How to find Joseph and his free field notes

SPEAKER_00 39:21

a new story about Italy, whether it's where the archangel Michael first appeared in Western Europe in 490 and the grotto of uh yeah, in the grotto of the archangel in Monte Sant'Angelo, or the Emperor Frederick II's eight-sided castle at Castro del Monte. So all of that is at Italian History with Joseph.com forward slash expat. You get all that access to the social media and even an email, which is really just Chow, C I A O Chow, at Italian History with Joseph.com.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

I love that. I'll put it all in the show notes that they can find you and all those special offers. So thanks, Joseph, for coming on. I wish I had all day to talk to you because I find it so fascinating. I love history. I love Italy, obviously. And so yeah, I'm gonna probably have to have you back in the future to talk about another region. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

I would love to. You just had more about wine too, huh?

SPEAKER_02 40:22

I'm in I'm okay with that as well. You just you just sparked another interest of mine. So thank you again, Joseph. That that's honestly, it's amazing. I'm I'm really so glad that you came on. We had a little bit of trouble getting on, but yeah, we we made it happen and I'm very happy that we we got to chat. So for those listening, thank you for listening to the Truly Expat Travel Podcast. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode moving forward. And for those who are traveling, safe travels and see you next week. Bye. Thank you for joining me on the Truly Expat Travel Podcast. If you liked this episode and you found it valuable, then why don't you go ahead and like and subscribe so that you don't miss an episode moving forward. I've got some amazing guests and some fantastic destinations coming up. But if this is the episode and this is the destination that you really want to go to, then I suggest you head over to truly expatravel.com where you'll find travel guides and deep dive into this sort of destination. If that's not what you want and you can't find an episode that uh is a destination you want to travel to, then head over and follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok because I'm pretty sure you'll find something there. In the meantime, safe travels and I'll see you next week.