Introduction & meet the guests

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Then we got to Pulya and we got to 40 degree days, beginning of July. Couldn't enjoy any of the itinerary that I'd planned, other than going to beach clubs, trying to get some shade. Did you go to dinner in a small town and it was just so hot outside. So admittedly, that may be different for everyone else, but I think now that I don't have children at school, I would prefer to probably travel outside that time frame because I felt ripped off in some ways. I didn't get to tick off everything I wanted to see and do within the Poolia region of Italy.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome to the Truly Expat Travel Podcast. I'm your host, Paula, and this is season two. On season one, I talk to expats about their favorite holiday destination. On season two, I'll be doing things very differently. I'll be chatting to expats about where they currently live, why they chose that destination, all those secret hidden gems that only locals know. You know, like favorite restaurants, best neighborhoods, things that tourists don't. Welcome back to the Truly Expat Travel Podcast. I'm your host, Paula, and today I've got two special guests. I know I say special guests all the time, but these are two really special guests because these are two of my friends from Sydney. Firstly, I have Camille, and Camille and I have known each other from school days. Oh my gosh. And I'm not going to tell you how long I've been out of school, but it's a very long time. And Rosalie, wow, Rosalie, even longer. We went to primary school together. We were like kids, little kids. So yeah, welcome girls. Thank you for coming on the panel. Hello. So today we're not going to talk about destination or tips. We're just actually going to have a raw conversation about a topic that's very kind of happening at the moment, and that

Is the European summer too hot? The big question

SPEAKER_00 1:47

is the European summer. So, you know, the everything at the moment in social media is how hot it is. So we're going to lean into the first question, which is has the traditional European summer become too hot for sightseeing? So what do you think, girls? Who wants to go first? Camille? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Well, why not? I mean, look, firstly, let me start by saying I wish I was in Europe in the European summer and I could be telling you this for the end, but sadly I'm not. I mean, it's Sydney winter, hence the warm place. Yeah, it's interesting the heat

Camille's take — heat, buildings and planning reality

SPEAKER_02 2:18

wave that we hear that's going on. I mean, personally, my daughter, um, as I know, Rosalie's son, is in Europe at the moment and they they are saying it's been really hot. So she has just done a hike in the Albanian Alps, and she said that was actually quite moderate. They I guess they were up and hiking early. But, you know, I I guess I'm of the opinion that there's probably no bad time to go to Europe if you want to go to Europe. Personally, I think if I had the choice, if I didn't need to travel within school holidays, I personally would be opting for somewhere that was less hot but also less peak for people point of view. But I guess like everywhere in the world, we're heating up, aren't we?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah. What do you think, Rosalie? I'm of the mindset at the moment after travelling two years ago, this time of year, my husband and I have gone, we're not traveling June, July. We're gonna have to try a different time of year because it's always been based on school holidays. The reason I say that is I had spent time planning this holiday to Pulia. And when we got there, we had left some islands off Sicily, the Aeolian Islands, where it was mild as 24 degrees, you know, you

Rosalie's Puglia nightmare: 40 degrees and a ruined itinerary

SPEAKER_01 3:22

could enjoy the actual island experience. Then we got to Puglia and we got to 40 degree days, beginning of July. Couldn't enjoy any of the itinerary that I'd planned other than going to beach clubs, trying to get some shade. You'd go to dinner in a small town and it was just so hot outside. So admittedly, that may be different for everyone else. But I think now that I don't have children at school, I would prefer to probably travel outside that time frame because I felt ripped off in some ways. I didn't get to kick off everything I wanted to see and do within the Puglia region of Italy.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Yeah, because I guess it depends on what part of Europe people are thinking of going to, right? So, you know, um last year I was in Sicily and Malta and France, actually on southern south France, in May, and that was hot. Like I was so surprised. When did I say hot? That's that's that's actually depends on what people think it's hot. It was when I first got there, it was like 19 degrees. And it doesn't sound hot, but it was hot. It felt really hot. People were swimming in the ocean. By the end of the month, it was hot, like it was already 30 degrees. So I hate to think what June-July was gonna look like in that part of Europe. But if you're in Albania and you're in the Alps, you know, and hiking,

Paula in Sicily and South of France in May

SPEAKER_00 4:38

I guess it's cooler up there.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

So I think, yeah, and in my experience, kind of thinking back to when I was in Europe in in summer, I feel they're very well prepared for the winter and their buildings are are designed, I guess, to retain heat, which then makes it hard in summer to cool. But I also found there was less shelter. I remember waiting on ports in, I don't know, Greek islands or Dubrovnik in Croatia, and there's just no shelter of from the shade. There weren't necessarily trees, there weren't really awnings. This was, I'm talking, this is now, I don't know, 15 years ago on, you know, I I I just wonder, and I'd it's probably changed since then, if they're not as designed for the for the heat. And

Why European buildings aren't built for heat

SPEAKER_02 5:22

the people for the people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, the amount of people. Like now, you know, after I guess COVID, everybody is traveling. And the problem now is not just only the heat, but you're waiting in lines, right? For restaurants and bookings and stuff like that. And so the heat is just awful. I mean, two years ago I was in Rome. That was hot. Like that's hot. Because you like you said, there's no shelter. There is no shelter. Yeah. It was it it becomes, like you said before, Rosalie, it becomes all of a sudden uncomfortably uncomfortable. So you can't actually do the tourist things, you can't walk around. You know, you've got to walk on either side or you go go either side of the day and you know, and you can't do your activity. It's awful. I personally

Over-tourism post-COVID — crowds, queues and burnout

SPEAKER_00 6:07

think it's awful. I prefer May and I prefer September because I was in Italy in September last year and it was cool, actually. It was still at night, it was cool, but it during the day you had like t-shirts and stuff on, which to me is perfect, right? That's and a monthly heart.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

That's the ideal Rosley have a plan in mind, and I guess this happens for a lot of people where it's it's walking tours or cooking classes or whatever, but it just becomes too hot to be able to enjoy the activities you planned. Like that that must feel like a double rip-off. Not only is it hot, but you spend all this time and energy and sometimes money in researching and and planning things that then you just can't enjoy to the full capacity. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

I'm still having a laugh. We were in a really cute little restaurant just in a small town in Boolia, and to try and cool people down. They have the fans going and then water spraying, but even that, it was just doing nothing. It's just that hot. Yeah. And then you sorry, go you don't get to enjoy the food experience and the people watching and stuff because you really just go, I want to go back to my hotel room. Yeah, sit air conditioning.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Because that was a

When your itinerary gets ruined by heat

SPEAKER_00 7:13

question I was gonna ask you. In your hotel room, did you have air con conditioning?

SPEAKER_01 7:16

I suppose it's like London, I know the day my son arrived in London, it was close to 36 degrees, and it, you know, having lived there, yeah, yeah, it's hot. That's hot.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

It's hot nowhere to go. And she said it was so hot it got up to 40, and and they've got a like a then a two-week old, and you know, with the baby monitor, you can see the temperature in the room.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Like 30 degrees, and there's no, you know, they had fans and again with the water and the fan, but yeah, it just it's you know, the house is lovely and cozy in winter, but it's just not designed for uh the the heat.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Yeah, I think that's especially if you go to old Roman, like not Roman, but old ancient towns where and you stay in those old traditional homes, there's there is no air conditioning and there's no ventilation. It's awful. It it really is. I I remember one year we were in Venice and the air con, we I thought we'd stayed at air like a pensioni, right? So I thought we'd stay in the top roof, rooftop kind of accommodation because it's gonna we're gonna have the views and whatever. But it was so old, like the it was beautiful, but it was so old that you could only use the air con

Air conditioning (or lack of it) across Europe

SPEAKER_00 8:26

in one room or the other, not at the same time. So we'd have it on and the kids would in the middle of the night would call out, can we have some air con ton now? You know, like because you could only have one, but it'd be like an hour later and be switching it back off because it was so hot, like so hot, I can't even explain. It was so hot and uncomfortable. So I guess then I'm gonna ask, should travelers rethink where they go rather than the time of of that that like the time of year that they go? Because I know that you said Rosalie before that you can only go on school holidays, and a lot of people can only go on school holidays. Then should they be rethinking where in Europe they're going or where in general that they're going? Possibly.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

I think it's what your level of tolerance to heat, possibly humidity, and what you want out of your holidays. As I said, I think for me, I would prefer to go either the other end of the school holidays, so Easter time or that September time now, where it's a little bit cooler. I don't love s you know, being in that heat. So that's one option. Or as people are doing, they're choosing to go like Scandinavia, maybe up into the mountains where you can still maybe use lakes to swim. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

There's lots of choices, but I think it depends on what you want out out of your holiday.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Yeah, it's true. What do you think, Cam?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, look, 100%. I guess it d it depends on what what you're looking for. And you know, I I guess if you're wanting a beach holiday and beach clubs and, you know, cocktails by the sea, then perhaps the summer isn't such a bad thing. You know, I guess there's the the European beaches have the luxury if you can afford it to pay for umbrellas and beach chairs and etc. But I guess if you are wanting to do, I mean, there's so many places to see and do. As you said, Rosalie, you know, head further up to Scandinavia. I mean, even parts of Scotland, Ireland, there's you know, if you wanted to go to Europe, but then there's also other places. I mean,

Should you rethink WHERE you go, not just when?

SPEAKER_02 10:15

you see a lot of people this time of year, if they're not going to Europe, they're heading to Asia. And there are some beautiful places. And you know, I guess it just depends on on your budget and and what you're wanting to see, and if you're looking for adventure or you're looking for relaxation. And yeah, I guess we're, you know, for us probably wherever we travel is going to be quite a distance. So you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, I I do think I get it for the young ones, like I get it for the the younger ones that have just either finished university or school and want a gap year and stuff like that, and they want their first European summer on their own. I get it, but I think now, realistically, I think it's going to be harder and harder to to head to Europe during summer, especially if you want to be doing other than sitting by the the water, if you want to do real touristy things or beautiful little towns that have no breezes and it's just too it's way too hot and too busy. Like honestly, my concern now is overtourism is you know, going to a place and feeling ripped off because I haven't booked a a restaurant or I've booked a restaurant and I still have to wait an hour kind of thing. So, I mean, that kind of it's it

Alternatives: Scandinavia, Scotland, Ireland and Asia

SPEAKER_00 11:25

it feels then that I know that that I not only ripped off that the holiday isn't what I expected, you know, after all the research and the money that you put into it. I know that after COVID, some of the islands like Mykonos were not expecting the amount of tourists, and they had, I think, don't quote me, I don't know the exact numbers, but it was like something like 10,000 more people over summer than they expected. So there was no restaurants availability, no accommodation, and there were just long lines for everything, and people were angry, you know. That's the other thing. People get cranky, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Yeah. But I went years ago, the first time we went to Disneyland, and we were told, I mean, I we didn't have kids then, so it was many years ago. And I think it just happened to be over an Easter long weekend when we were flying through LA, and we got told one of the best bits of advice I rem remember is that it's gonna be busy and you're probably gonna have to queue an hour at least for every ride. And just go in there knowing that you're gonna get in a queue and you're gonna queue for an hour, and you can either choose to let that impact your day, or you can just go, this is the way it is, and you can get on with it. And I guess, you know, if you're choosing to travel in peak time, in school holidays, with everyone else, I guess there's an of, you know, radical acceptance in a way that, you know, it is gonna be busy and I'm gonna have to queue, or I'm gonna, you know, whether we like it or not, and it is gonna be disappointing and it's, you know, restaurants, yes, but sometimes you can't even get in to see the museums that you want, you know. Who knew that you had to book in to see, you know, David? I mean, obviously now you know this, but sometimes you don't know these things in advance. If you haven't been researching to that level, I mean there was the time you could just rock up and see whatever's whatever sites you wanted. Now it has to be booked in advance. And I guess there's the technology to do that. You know, back when we were young and traveling, you couldn't book in advance. There was no internet that was, you know, but now for young people, they have that opportunity. So I guess it comes with pros and cons, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah. So if you had if you had two weeks in Europe and wanted both beaches and beautiful cities, where would you choose and what months would you choose? Would it be June, July, would it be September, May, or would it be winter? Rosalie?

SPEAKER_01 14:02

I think if we do another beach holiday to Europe, I probably will be looking around September, late September, early October. So I've got a few places I'd like to head to at some stage. And they're typically still warmer towards uh southern Italy and some of the islands. But we've had some great winter holidays in terms of winter, like winter in the cities, you can explore. I know it's cold, but you you know, there's that I suppose that romance

Over-tourism reality check — Mykonos and booking ahead

SPEAKER_01 14:25

of you know rugging up and you are part of the European city you're in, and yeah, I'm open to either winter time, I'm fine with. I think just with the heat. Definitely September to late Octo early October.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Do you have a destination or do you have some destinations that have been your favourite? Where I would like to go is Lampedusa.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Me too. Me too. Off the off the coast of Sicily. And I do want to go to, if I can say it right, Fabignano, which is part of the Isle of Trapani, if I say that right, in Sicily. I do want to go to Albania, so I'd like to speak to Maddie. Somewhere else. We never got to Montenegro when we did Croatia in 2017. Because I say that from Jarovnik it's quite easy to get to. And you know what? I just I think I just want to go back to Calabria. I actually there's parts of Calabria that I really enjoy having, you know, family that are were born there. So I'd like to do that at this stage.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Well, I'll be going there in September, I told you, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:28

I know. Yeah, I'm excited for you.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

I'm looking forward to it. So, what has been your favourite though? Like if you pick a destination if an for summer or at least for beaches and cities, what would be your favourite destination?

SPEAKER_01 15:41

It's been Sardinia. Okay, interesting. We've been twice. When we were in living in London back in 2001, we went and it was pretty untouched. Ryanair had just released flights into Algero, and then we went back in 2014, the kids were little, and we just really enjoy the island, the different types of beaches, and very I've had it quite different up north to down south. So, yeah, Sardinia is probably my favourite.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Well, I have to pick your brain because I'm going there in September as well, and I haven't planned anything. So that's probably going to be super busy, and I've probably missed out on a whole heap of stuff. First of all, tell me where you'd like to go, and then tell me um where's your being your favourite destination because both of you have lived in London before, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yeah. Well, I guess I probably concur with Rosalie in that I uh about the

If you had 2 weeks in Europe: best destinations and timing

SPEAKER_02 16:26

winter travelling. We're not a massive ski family, so winter has not really appealed in Europe, but I did just end up there in in January this year, as as you both know. And I was really worried about the cold, but it was surprisingly beautiful. I mean, obviously not surprisingly beautiful. We knew it was beautiful, but it was surprisingly comfortable, and you know, as we talked about, everywhere inside is heated. I think I wore less clothes, like layers there, because once you went inside, as long as you had a coat and all of that, as you guys know, like the walking, you know, we just, you know, you could just walk everywhere. You know, you'd be doing 20,000 plus steps a day just seeing cities and and walking them. And so I guess one of the we were lucky, I guess, with the weather, it was mild and not not too wet. So actually, I'm I'm definitely it it made me reconsider about traveling

Sardinia — Rosalie's favourite (and why she's been twice)

SPEAKER_02 17:15

in winter. I never would have considered Europe as a winter travel destination unless we were skiing. So that totally changed my mind on that. I too think if I was going to do a a beach or a summer Europe trip, I would certainly now, with not having school-aged kids, opt for a September, thinking the water would still be warmer than say May, where it's not that warm yet, and I'm a bit of a chicken with cold water. And and outside of of peak time for all of the reasons that we had discussed before. Do you have a place that you would suggest for summer? I don't know. I guess there's just so many places to see and do. I mean, gosh, I look at our young people now, and they're going to places that was never on our radar when we were traveling at at that age. And it all looks amazing. So, I mean, I just think there's so many beautiful places to see and do. And I think for me, f the next place that I go to, and I'm not sure where that will be yet, I love that mix as you

Albania, Montenegro and Calabria on the wish list

SPEAKER_02 18:10

were talking about Rosalie of of you know, culture and immersion in a inner culture and and the people and community as well as the the sites and the beaches. So, you know, there's so many options. I just really don't know that I could pinpoint one. My my my list as many.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Yeah, I'm I'm the same. I I have to I'm gonna tap on to what Rosalie said. I really want to go to Albania that's been on my bucket list at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Matty's a lot of the uh the outs that they're climbing, and it looks stunning. But even in the city that they were in before that, and and they're doing the trip that you the bit you were suggested, Rosalie. They're going from Albania to Montenegro into Dubrovnik. So lovely. And all via bus and ferries, and there's no flights and involved in that. And they ferried over from Corfu, I think, to Albania. Oh, nice too. Yeah, it looks amazing. The colour of the water is just stunning. They went to this river, the Sharla River, the colour looks amazing, but it's fresh water and it's a it's from the glaciers, so it's like two degrees, even in in summer. Beautiful. Yeah, that was they said that was a real highlight.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

I think I think if I was to do it, yeah, I would do May, May, September.

Why Camille changed her mind about winter travel

SPEAKER_00 19:24

I was there late September last year. It started to get a little bit cooler. Early October October. I'm I'm too much of a chicken to get in the water in October. But I did in May. Like I actually did in May, and I'm a chicken too. So I guess it depends on what part of Europe. Going down to Sicily, it's much warmer. Yeah, yeah. But if I had to choose in winter, I actually I'm with you. I loved winter. I was in I think I told you, but I was in Poland in uh winter last this year, and I was scared. When I say scared, I was really scared because I hate cold weather. But um I had thermals on and stuff, and in fact, it's such a beautiful town or city that it made it even prettier because it was snowing. So, you know, I I just I loved it. And I think I'm going to head to Europe more often and when it's cooler, just because not there's not many crowd like not big crowds, and you get to see, still get to see the sites. We did lots of museums. So I would definitely be picking I would definitely put Poland on my list of places to go during winter. I mean in summer I think I really want to go to Alban. I really want to go to Albania. But there's also if I had to pick one well, yeah, we'll all go together. But I think if I was to go if I had to choose somewhere, I would say Malta. I think Malta to me was such a surprise at how beautiful that city, that country is. It's so small, but not it's not as small as Singapore. So there's it's it's uh there's a lot to do, and it's just beautiful. Like just beautiful. I don't know why the Maltese come to Australia to live because it's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

I've heard that too. Yeah, I'd love to go there also.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Yeah, and everyone speaks English,

Cultural immersion vs beach holidays

SPEAKER_00 21:01

which is a little bit sad because apparently I was told by um a friend who lives there that the Maltese, if you go to a private school, you don't learn the language you don't learn Maltese anymore, you're only learning English. So the the languages die. So not that many of this the newer gener like younger generation really speak Maltese, which is a bit sad to lose their language, you know, and it's part of their culture.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

100%. Yeah, and I would have thought in most or all European areas they're studying more than just one language. So you would think they'd be doing two or two languages.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah. I think uh yeah, I don't know. That's that's I think because everything maybe they do know a little bit

Albania's Shala River — glacier water at two degrees

SPEAKER_00 21:42

of Maltese, but not fluently, not like you would if it was your mother tongue, if that's if that makes sense. Which is really sad. I actually think that's really sad. But I I do know that the university there has more international students than anywhere else in Europe because the English program that they supply, or they they the programme that they have there is so much more affordable than everywhere else. So that's why a lot of um people go there to speak English, which is very interesting. Yeah, I'm full of a lot of useless information. Yeah, I was learning a lot. Yeah, I'm full of you a lot of useless general information that won't get me anywhere in life. But anyway. Take you to a trivia night. Yeah, I have to do a trivia night. As long as it's all useless general information, I'll I'll be there. Nothing, nothing anything nothing too intellectual for me. Do you have anything else that you'd like to add, girls, before we go? No. Okay. No. That's been a very that's been a lot of fun, actually. That's been uh insightful and fun. And I'm gonna have to get you girls back on again and we'll do

May and September: the European travel sweet spots

SPEAKER_00 22:42

another uh panel because I know both of you have have traveled extensively. And so I'd I'd love to, you know, pick your brain on on some subjects. So yeah, so thank you for coming on to the Truly Expat Travel Podcast. And uh thank you for listening. That's signing off now from the Truly Expat Travel podcast. And I'll see you next week. Okay, thank you for joining me on the Truly Expat Travel Podcast. If you liked this episode and you found it valuable, then why don't you go ahead and like and subscribe so that you don't miss an episode moving forward. I've got some amazing guests and some fantastic destinations coming up. But if this is the episode and this is the destination that you really want to go to, then I suggest you head over to truly expatravel.com where you'll find travel guides and deep dive into this sort of destination. If that's not

Poland in winter — a surprising highlight

SPEAKER_00 23:40

what you want and you can't find an episode that is a destination you want to travel to, then head over and follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok because I'm pretty sure you'll find something there. But in the meantime, safe travels and I'll see you next week.