Paula Barnes: So have very special guest here today. I'm really excited to talk to Oren, a little background. I met Oren not long ago, just a few months ago in Dublin. He was speaking at a Nomad conference and I was really intrigued by what he does and where he's from. I'm not gonna tell you too much. I'm gonna let him explain where he's from and yeah, so welcome Oren.Oren Chazan: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.Paula Barnes: It's great to have you. So let's get started and tell me where are you living and what brought you there?Oren Chazan: Well, it used to be a more complicated question for me, but now, but nowadays it's easier for me to answer that. I live, well, most of the year I live in Italy in the area of Lago Maggiore, which is the north part close to the Italian, between the Italian Alps and the lakes. So basically we're very close to the Swiss border. And I've been there for the past almost two years now.Paula Barnes: Okay and what do you do there which I find so intriguing so can you explain what you do there?Oren Chazan: Hahaha. Yeah, so me and a few partners, we found an old hotel, which was a very good deal and we bought it together and we turned it into a co-living space. So for people who don't know what that is, so it's basically a big house where people live together. It's mostly for digital nomads, people who work remotely, but it's also totally suitable for people who just want to relax and live in nature. So the place is up in the mountains, it's surrounded by forest and greenery and yeah it's for people who, it's a house for people who want to slow down. Let's say if I need to put it in very few words.Paula Barnes: Yeah, no, no, and is it open all year? No.Oren Chazan: No, we're only open during the summer for co-living. We do rent out the building during the winter for groups, but not as a fully active business.Paula Barnes: Okay. hotel style. okay. And do you find most people that arrive there stay for like three months, one month, two weeks, or is that a quick trick question?Oren Chazan: I think the average would probably be a few weeks, like between two and three weeks. But we've had people stay anywhere between one week and two months. I think the most people stayed is two months. We are quite remote. Our location is quite remote. We are connected by a bit of public transport, but it's quite remote. So it's not for everyone. So definitely, yeah.Paula Barnes: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you say digital nomads, but can anybody actually stay there? Like, can... Okay. Okay, just checking.Oren Chazan: Yeah, we don't vet. We don't have any vetting process. Yeah, it's place for everyone. The biggest value we give to people is the community aspect of it. So of course we have fast internet, have working spaces, we have everything, but that's not the main point of it. It's just a good addition. The main value people get from the place is just the peace and quiet and the community vibe that's very strong there because we kind of facilitate it.Paula Barnes: Okay, so I'll put all those details in the show notes, but what is the name, if someone is Googling it, what is the name of the place?Oren Chazan: Okay, so the place is called Montino Co-Living. A lot of people ask me what does the name mean, so to be honest, we made it up. But Montino is kind of sounds like Italian for a small mountain or something like this, so it works, it works.Paula Barnes: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that. I love that. But it sounds like a really relaxing place where even someone like myself who I'm not a digital nomad but I do work everywhere I can and so it I mean well yeah but I still have a place to live so I'm more like I'm an expat but I have aspects of being a digital nomad so I could come over there for a couple of weeks and just write I guess it'd be a great place for me to just work.Oren Chazan: Yeah, so you are a digital nomad. Yes.Paula Barnes: So yeah.Oren Chazan: Yeah, we've had plenty of people. I think writing is one of the projects that comes up a lot with people that come to us. They're like, okay, I need to write something to focus. We even had like requests, I need the quietest room because I need to be focused and write.Paula Barnes: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so you know what, you may see me this year. might pop over, I'll be in Italy a lot this year, so maybe I'll pop over and utilise the space and get to know the area which we're delving into today. like you said, it's classed as Italy though, right? It's not Switzerland, it is Italy, the address. Yeah. Okay, so.Oren Chazan: Yes, please. It's Italy, yeah. It's still in Italy.Paula Barnes: Actually before we even get into the question, do you do you does everyone speak Italian there or do they speak a mix they just pick it up with a dialectOren Chazan: No, no, they all speak Italian. Yeah, I am still learning. So actually the north part of Italy has less dialect. So actually the Italian from Piemonte, which is the general region where we're in, is very clear and Italian. So they do have some local dialect, but not many speak it. It's more like just proper Italian. Yeah.Paula Barnes: just proper Italian, okay. It's good to know. just thought that, I just thought that, which is why I'm very excited to hear about the cuisine and stuff. So let's get started. what is the area best known for?Oren Chazan: Well actually the funny thing is we live in Lago Maggiore, that's the lake we're next to.Paula Barnes: beautiful.Oren Chazan: but the area is known more for the other lakes like Lake Como, everyone knows, George Kalounis Villa. That's the next lake to the east of us and Lake Garda, some people know it's also quite famous. So strangely, Lago Majore is mostly known for, known in the communities around, countries around. So people from Germany and from Switzerland and from, let's say, Netherlands or France love coming to that region because it's close for them to drive. And it's Italy, but it's the north part of Italy, so it's close to them. I think this is... But yeah, the region we're in...Paula Barnes: Okay. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.Oren Chazan: it's known for well, it's known for being close to the Swiss Alps for being like having the backdrop of the Swiss Alps, which is absolutely incredible and yeah, a few of the touristic things in the area, but historically Piedmont has been the region where a lot of the marble for building the Italian city has come from. So fun fact.Paula Barnes: Yep. Yeah, I love fun facts.Oren Chazan: So fun fact that actually from really close to where we are the The marble for the Duomo in Milano, a very famous cathedral, was brought from our area and from quarries in our area. And Leonardo da Vinci actually came up with a way to transport these huge slabs of marble down from where we are to Milan. And now it's an hour and half to drive, but I can imagine the 500Paula Barnes: Yep. Yep, yep, back in the day, yeah.Oren Chazan: years ago it would be a bit more difficult. So yeah, they actually transported it through the lake and down the rivers and managed to transport it that way. yeah, fun fact I actually just heard recently. It's interesting.Paula Barnes: That's very cool. I was literally there, actually after I saw you, I went to Italy, I went to Milan and Lake Como, because my auntie, my cousins and my zia live in Lake Como. So I was really close to you. Definitely, definitely. So what are some of the attractions in the area? Is it the lake? Is that the main thing?Oren Chazan: nice. so you definitely need to come visit. Yeah, the lake is the main attraction. On the lake we have, there's like very famous islands. They're called the Boromian Islands and and you can tour them and like have a day tour of all of them or just go to one of them and they have like botanical gardens, the museums and some of them have like restaurants, cafes. It's just really beautiful with the backdrop obviously of the mountains behind. I think are more specifically the area where we're inPaula Barnes: Okay.Oren Chazan: is not very well known to be honest but it has really beautiful hiking for people who like hiking.Paula Barnes: Yeah.Oren Chazan: We actually had some trail runners there in our, so if some people are into that, it's really, really the perfect spot for that because we have some, like we're in the pre-alpine area, and the peaks are not very high, but when you get to them, you see everything around and it's just incredible. So that's the main attraction.Paula Barnes: nice so you can can you do that in a day like they're hikes that you could do in a day or they date days off okay okayOren Chazan: Definitely, Anything between one hour and like a week of through hiking you can do directly from the door of our place, which is really nice for people who live in nature.Paula Barnes: wow. Okay, so you're selling this very much to me right now. I feel like I need to be there this summer. you know, I love to hike. I love the lake. I love summer in Europe is something quite special about that.Oren Chazan: Yes, it is very fun.Paula Barnes: So I guess my question was that when's the best time to visit and I guess the only time to visit is really summer because if you went in winter it's what would you do in winter? There's not much there or they're skiing.Oren Chazan: Yeah, so our region during winter, the region is a bit less populated, there's less people. It is not like a ghost town. I mean, our place is always a ghost town a bit because we're in a very, very small village. We are the only actual business in the village.Paula Barnes: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yep.Oren Chazan: So yeah, like the next restaurant is about five minutes drive away. So yeah, so in the area there's not much winter attractions. So ski and stuff like that are not very, are a bit far from us. So that's why we were open mostly during the summer. Also, I think the nomads are more summer people than winter people. Yeah. Yeah. So.Paula Barnes: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't blame them. I don't blame them.Oren Chazan: yeah the best time obviously the seas our season and that's the season of most of the also the hotels in the area and things is between April or May to October We are open from May to October, but April is is also very a very nice month in the area in the region, especially the spring time so between the spring and and late summer and like autumn everyPaula Barnes: Yeah.Oren Chazan: has a bit of a different like vibe to it. So let's say April, end of April, beginning of May is like the beginning, the blooming and everything becomes super green and lush and all the, you know, all the beautiful greenery around is just like in the best of colors, like so bright green, amazing. And then June, July and August is more time that it gets warmer. You can goPaula Barnes: Yeah.Oren Chazan: swim in the lake, the water is a bit warmer and then the weather gets better and then September is the perfect weather it's like chilly it's like not too chilly not too hot so yeah I mean the whole this whole period when we're open is a great time to be around but I'd say the high high season is July and August I think for example like September is a really good time to come becausePaula Barnes: get.Oren Chazan: July and August are very hot and also there's lots of tourists from the neighboring countries. So if you come in September, most of the tourists are gone at that point, so you have the beaches to yourself, well not to yourself, but it's very less crowded. And then obviously in October we have the autumn leaves and kind of the autumn colors which is just, I mean, mind-blowing. So beautiful, yeah.Paula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, and I imagine it's easier to hike when it's a little bit cooler as well. And I think it depends on the type of vacation or type of the reason that you want to go there, right? So whether it's hiking, I'm a massive fan lately of shoulder season because I feel like there's so many tourists around. And I know I'm a tourist, it's just so... But it just feels like there's just so many people around in thoseOren Chazan: You're the expat, not the tourist.Paula Barnes: big places like Lake Como, even in September was so busy. So I can only imagine what summer's gonna be like.Oren Chazan: Yeah, definitely the solar seasons are better. Also, I think in our region in general, it's not... You were saying about the heat during the summer months. yeah, actually this is the best... For me, this is the best perk of living in the mountains. In the summer when... Well, down in the lake, it could be 35 degrees or something. And then up in the mountains, it's always a bit cooler. There's always some breeze. So even in the hottest days, it's still quite nice. where we are so that's a good perk.Paula Barnes: in terms of getting around firstly how long does it take to get to the lake? Secondly is it a place you have to have a car?Oren Chazan: Okay, the lake has, depending on how you go, so if you can walk, because we're actually like, as the bird flies, how do you say that? I'm not sure. As the bird flies, we're like one kilometer from the lake.Paula Barnes: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a bit fun. wow. Yep.Oren Chazan: but we're up in the mountains so you can actually hike down and up. It's not that difficult. You can hike down to the lake. It takes about an hour and maybe an hour and half on the way back. So a lot of people have done that this past season. So it's supposed to be quite a nice walk. I have actually never done that. That's my, don't tell anyone. I recommend everyone to do it but then I've never actually done it because I have my car.Paula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. HeheheheheOren Chazan: Yeah, so you can hike down. can, there's, we have a bus that goes, it's not very frequent, but like five times a day. And yeah, by car it's the easiest. I do recommend for people who can or, or, have the option to hire a car just because there's so much to see in smaller villages around. And a lot of these are going to be very difficult to reach by public transport. Most of them are quite accessible. But if you need to kind of like...Paula Barnes: Yeah.Oren Chazan: schedule like be very tight on the schedule and it's possible There is quite good and reliable public transport, but it doesn't arrive everywhere. and having a car is very convenientPaula Barnes: Jiffy. Yeah.Oren Chazan: Especially if you like the drive to the lake is about 30 minutes. and you pass through like beautiful little towns and villages around on the way and the views are amazing. yeah, every drive you do in our area is just yeah, has an amazing backdrop.Paula Barnes: is beautiful. And driving, I know I've driven to Lake Garda before, but I'm wondering is it hard to drive around because it can get scary in Italy.Oren Chazan: in the mountains. it's, I think it's a bit subjective, right? Like, it depends on who you are and how we, like, arriving in our place, it is quite a mountainous, like, you know, curvy kind of road. It's not dangerous in any way. So there are some roads in our area that are quite scary because they don't have like the fences on the side and...Paula Barnes: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.Oren Chazan: Some of them are a bit sketchy, but the roads are built quite well, so most of the time you're good. But yeah, there's always this situation where the bus comes from, you're just in the narrowest part of the road, the bus comes from one direction and you're in the other, like, what do I do now? That happens.Paula Barnes: I guess you're used to that now but it's something that you've got to get used to right? Because it's just the way and I guess my tip then would be hire a small car then? Would that be? Yeah or a scooter? I've just learnt to drive a scooter so yeah maybe I'll hire a scooter. So in terms of souvenirs I know the area is very small and remoteOren Chazan: Yeah. Yeah. I guess yeah, or a scooter. nice, congratulations.Paula Barnes: Is there some sort of souvenir you would suggest that you could get that's a little different, that should take back?Oren Chazan: Well, I think... think the most common thing that people bring from Italy in general but from coming from our place would be like some kind of food. for example like a goat cheese local. So there's so many good local and small factories or just like small home businesses that make great food. I mean our region is not known for anything very specific. As far as I know of course I'm still integrating into this place so a lot of people just bring...Paula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah.Oren Chazan: different types of foods or it can be cheeses or like a lot of goat and sheep cheese around us. It's really good if you're into, if you like that. There's some crafts that people do. So for example, in the villages around us, there's a lot of people that weave baskets. I don't know how that became, how that came to.Paula Barnes: Mm. okay.Oren Chazan: in terms of cuisine, then our area is known for its porcini mushrooms and some of the truffles. So I think people also, people love that, yeah. So I think most of the souvenirs are in the food area in Italy in general.Paula Barnes: okay, because that was my next question. Okay. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. So okay so I've got two questions you've spurred some interest here. So firstly when you say truffles can you find truffles in the area or is it just that the cuisine like is there's a lot of truffle flavoured cuisine there?Oren Chazan: Yeah. So the area, not exactly where we are, but a bit to the west in the Italian, closer to the Italian Alps, it is a region that's known for its truffles. So around September, October, Everywhere you go you get like special truffle dishes and stuff like that. So it's not local exactly to where we are but in the region in general it's a very popular thing. And the porcini mushroom actually grow...Paula Barnes: Yeah.Oren Chazan: in our village somewhere. But I have, but the locals have told me in the, when I just arrived, they said, I saw them one day going and I asked them what they're doing. And they're like, yeah, we're going to look for porcini and.Paula Barnes: wow. just hit it.Oren Chazan: And I said, oh, tell me where it is. I said, no, no, no, no. It's our secret. So I'm not yet, maybe in a few years, if they'll get used to me being there and they'll tell me their secrets. But for now, it's...Paula Barnes: It's a secret. So is there a cuisine that you have to try in the region?Oren Chazan: I do like just the fresh produce. so everything is very local and fresh. So I really like that about our area.Paula Barnes: Mm.Oren Chazan: interestingly enough, there is a pizza, like one of the pizzas, Piemontese pizza is actually, I don't actually like that that much, but some people love it because they have like some kind of pear in syrup.Paula Barnes: Yeah. HahahaOren Chazan: On a white pizza with like gorgonzola So it's not my style, but it's a very well known some people love itPaula Barnes: yes! Not my style either. okay. So if I was to come to the region, is that what I should be trying? The pizza?Oren Chazan: Yeah, pizza, pasta, loco. I think just anything, I mean, I think there's no special one dish that I know. Maybe I haven't discovered it yet, maybe.Paula Barnes: Okay.Oren Chazan: yeah, just having the local, very fresh, everything is very, like, just very good.Paula Barnes: And when you arrived, when was the wow moment and what caught you? What made you decide, okay, this is the place? Besides, what made you find the hotel to buy in the first place, I guess? What was the wow moment?Oren Chazan: Okay, that's a bit of two different questions. when I started looking for a place like this, it started out as a real estate quest. It wasn't even a place to live for me. The general idea was I had a business partner and we wanted to build something as an investment. But when we started looking and then some people got interested in what we were doing, we actually were looking in Portugal. Originally, the original place we were looking in was Portugal. And it didn't work out for different reasons. And my business partner, loves, loves, loves Italy. And I've never been, actually. I've never been to Italy before this project. Never been.Paula Barnes: okay.Oren Chazan: Which is weird because I, yeah, like everyone I know loves Italy, like a lot of people I know, but I've, for some reason I've never been. like it's always so approachable, so easy. It's always there, Italy. It's not like, Indonesia, I need to fly all the way there. it's very accessible, Italy, and everyone knows it and everyone's talking about it, but I've never been. So it was a strange situation. But my partner said, okay, we were looking into some online real estate, et cetera, and we saw there's so many things, so many opportunities, and he really loved Italy and knew some Italians, so we looked into it. And then we were searching, it was long search, took us a almost two years to find this place.Paula Barnes: wow. Okay.Oren Chazan: but on the way, while we were doing this real estate project, people started getting interested and we kind of realized that maybe we don't need to do like, we need to do something that's a bit different. maybe not just like a housing project, just for the investment, but maybe make a business out of it. And we had kind of some communities I've always been around, like not always, but in the past few years as a nomad, I've been around a lot of people. of communities. So these two things kind of connected together into this project and yeah so we were looking and then finally when we got ready to look into Italy then we were already looking for a community house and not just for real estate. So that was that's the general how did we get to this place. But we and we found the place totally randomly on aPaula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah.Oren Chazan: real estate website and we thought the the deal the price was too good to be true but then we went there and yeah so my my actually my wow moment was was quite early in thePaula Barnes: Yeah.Oren Chazan: in the process when march of 2024 my business partner went to check this place out I was in southern Italy in a different co-living and my partner checked out and he was like showing me some videos and he was like standing there in the end of march still cold season and he was like short sleeve there was sun outside amazing beautiful and he was like with the ownerPaula Barnes: Yeah. YouOren Chazan: and they were showing me around the video and he said, listen, I think you should come here. And then like 10 days later, a week later, I managed to get there and it was raining, cold, gray all day. Like I was there for three days. It didn't stop raining for one minute. It was just horrible. But, that.Paula Barnes: But you could see the potential.Oren Chazan: Yeah, no, that was the... and also, so when I arrived it was yeah, it was cold and grey. The hotel itself was really like, it was painted with like yellow and darker colors, so I really like, the vibe of the place was weird.Paula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah.Oren Chazan: But I did see the potential and I did see what like, we did have a vision of what we want and it fit perfectly in the place. But also the first night I was there, with a hired car and I drove down to the city to get dinner and... on the way back or on both ways actually I saw so many like so much wildlife there was like a group of wild boar and there was a deer and there was like some foxes and I'm like wow this is how I want to live like in nature yeahPaula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now you're selling it.Oren Chazan: Beautiful, really, really beautiful. So I didn't see the views. It was just like I didn't, I had no idea what's around because the trees were all like without, this was before the spring. So all the trees were naked and I didn't see any of the mountains around. I knew there's a lake. didn't, couldn't see it, but I knew it's there. So yeah.Paula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you trusted your gut. and it all worked out. I mean, sometimes you just have to trust that gut feeling I can't wait for other people to see exactly what you're saying. Because I've been online and looked at the area and looked at your website and I'm like, okay, this is beautiful. It really is beautiful. It's a nice part of the world.Paula Barnes: But if I was to come for just three days I know most people don't but if I came for three days what would an itinerary fit do you think would suit me?Oren Chazan: I would definitely spend a day hiking at least one day. Let's say if you only have three days, I'd say one day hiking.Paula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah.Oren Chazan: There's super accessible hiking and like you can even get some of the peaks are very easy to get to. some people like hiking like hours and like 20 kilometers, but if you're, if you're only into like a short hike, two or three hours, you can get to a very close peak and it's just everywhere you go is beautiful. So I definitely recommend spending some time in nature, obviously also in the lake.Paula Barnes: Yeah. Perfect. Yep.Oren Chazan: the Boromian Islands, like if there's one touristic attraction that I would recommend is, well actually maybe two. So one is touring the islands, seeing beautiful botanical gardens, both on the islands and on the, our side of the lake. So I think there's really beautiful areas to visit, some museums, like historical and art museums. you can easily spend the day doing that. Also, if you're high,Paula Barnes: Yep. Okay. Yep.Oren Chazan: in our area. there is a really nice zipline. It's like one of the longest in the world and it takes like two minutes, which sounds not a lot, but it is quite a lot for a zipline. And it goes like over the valley. It's just the view from the zipline is just incredible and you're like very high up. So that's another thing. I think just visiting the villagesPaula Barnes: it is.Oren Chazan: There is one very nice spot that I really love that's not on the tourist map really. There's a Buddhist temple.Paula Barnes: Perfect.Oren Chazan: about let's say about 15 minutes drive from us and it's absolutely incredible it has obviously it has a beautiful view like buddhist temple tend to have but just a very serene calm place they even have like a cafe that you can have like some coffee food and they have lots of stuff going on so you can always just walk into a meditation or some teachings they have stuff likePaula Barnes: okay. Yeah.Oren Chazan: that they have different stuff going on so and they have like a daily schedule so it's really nice I mean for me it's not even about the events they do there it's just like walking around and having this kind of very serene very serene atmosphere so for me for because my second bass is Thailand so I love that I have a bit of that in my in my bass it's really nicePaula Barnes: Yep. Yeah. So do you think three days is enough? You probably need a lot more if you want to have a slow travel right? probably, a couple of hikes you can do.Oren Chazan: Yeah, some people do. I think a lot of people come, especially people that live in like German, Swiss, French as I said, come to this area for a few days because it's easy and accessible to them. They can drive. So people do it. I do recommend coming for longer just because... absorbing this kind of quiet, natural surrounding and slowing down takes more than, like, it takes a few days. We've had people come for a week and say, we should have stayed, I really should have stayed another week, because it takes you know, to bring your mind. and body to relax and like give in to the slowness and the quiet.Paula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah, I think because it's a different type of holiday, So it's not a it's not a place where go go go. There's a lots of attractions. It's more of a okay. I nearly need to chill. just spend a few days mindfully walking through hiking swimming getting to know the locals and around the area. So I guess my next question was about finding a hidden secret but I think you've already given us a few of those.Oren Chazan: I don't have a specific one, but I would say that just like, if you're driving around, especially if you have a car, it's the best way to do it. If you're driving around and you just pass some village that looks cool, just stop somewhere and walk around because you can always like, villages are usually, they look, they're very nice. They look, and they look sometimes very quiet and there's nothing going on. But if you just walk around.Paula Barnes: Yeah.Oren Chazan: bit and and like look into the little know alleys and and and like walk into a church walk into something i don't know there's so many small things that happen if you just like stop if you just stop for a moment and not look for attractions but just like you know it's just very magical i mean italian villages you know how it is they they have this kind of magic right so just like the little alleyways and the the architecturePaula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Oren Chazan: architecture and suddenly there's gonna be like a little cafe or or shop that you would never have found on Google Maps or and you just like you can sit in this really serene beautiful environment and enjoy a coffee or just like walk around some Villages, so it's not about a specific one. It's just like, you know surrender to this kind of wandering Mood just whatever happensPaula Barnes: Because Italians are excellent at the art of doing nothing, right? It's that sit, people watch. It's that meander through little villages. It's that kind of feeling. And that's what you're giving me right now is that really get to know yourself and the nature around. So, yeah.Oren Chazan: Yes, they are.Paula Barnes: You've really intrigued me to come. I'm telling you now, watch this space, I'll be there this year.Oren Chazan: Well, I gotta say that we're running an early bird promotion now. So I mean, I can provide some details for you and the description of the podcast. So yeah.Paula Barnes: okay. Yes. Yes. Yeah, please do. I'll put it in the show notes because yeah, I'll definitely have a look atOren Chazan: I just want to say that this is It's been lovely I highly recommend for people to come explore Italy not necessarily in the way that we Were used to I mean everyone knows Rome. Everyone knows Florence. Everyone knows Napoli and they're very likePaula Barnes: Yep. Yeah.Oren Chazan: Obviously I'm not taking anything away from them, but if there's one recommendation I can, about generally in Italy, it doesn't have to be our area, but...Paula Barnes: Yeah.Oren Chazan: look around for the small stuff. Like the big cathedrals are amazing, the huge architecture, the huge streets and the big cities great, but sometimes just like having a conversation like a very broken conversation with a local and I don't know drinking a glass of wine or having like an aperitif or for sunsets it's just like these are moments in Italy that are really special and and I find for mePaula Barnes: I agree. Yeah.Oren Chazan: personally they're much more interesting than the grandeur of like the cathedrals of Milan and Rome so that's just my my take on itPaula Barnes: I'm a 100 % behind you on that. I'm totally exactly up your alley. I did the same thing last year for a month and I absolutely loved it. I saw a part of Italy or a side of Italy that I just fell in love with. thank you so much, Oren. That was such a fun interview to chat to you about this beautiful region in Italy.Oren Chazan: Thank you. Yeah, I appreciatePaula Barnes: Hopefully I get to see you this year so thank you, thank you so much. really, really appreciate it.Paula Barnes: Thank you for joining me on the Truly Expat Travel podcast. If you liked this episode and you found it valuable, then why don't you go ahead and like and subscribe so that you don't miss an episode moving forward. I've got some amazing guests and some fantastic destinations coming up. But if this is the episode and this is the destination that you really wanna go to, then I suggest you head over to trulyexpattravel.com where you'll find travel guides and deep dive into this sort of destination. If that's not what you want and you can't find an episode that is a destination you want to travel to then head over and follow me on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok because I'm pretty sure you'll find something there. In the meantime safe travels and I'll see you next week.